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Centaurea montana = C.mollis ? Synonym ?

Wer eine Wildpflanze aus Europa bestimmt haben möchte, kann hier eine Bestimmungsanfrage dazu stellen.

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Kraichgauer
Beiträge: 2317
Registriert: 09.10.2016, 11:01

Re: Centaurea montana = C.mollis ? Synonym ?

Beitrag von Kraichgauer » 11.07.2020, 23:49

Could you please be so polite and state a real question? Same applies to your inquiries below. Usually it is not clear what you mean at all. This does not motivate people to answer.
Also it would be required to state where you found the species and when.

Michael

BubikolRamios1
Beiträge: 947
Registriert: 23.05.2016, 20:49

Re: Centaurea montana = C.mollis ? Synonym ?

Beitrag von BubikolRamios1 » 12.07.2020, 05:51

Centaurea montana = C.mollis ? Synonym ?
I think that is complete question. Nothing more to add.

When and where is usually under linked image, as it is at OP linked image.

Politeness has nothing to do with it, i'm reading, I mean realy reading Alpenflora (THOMAS GÖTZ) these days. Take a look at it, I don't think you would mention politeness reading it and there is everything super short.

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Anagallis
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Registriert: 11.08.2014, 22:59

Re: Centaurea montana = C.mollis ? Synonym ?

Beitrag von Anagallis » 12.07.2020, 09:00

Anyway, it's completely unclear to me what the image has to do with the question whether said taxa are synonyms. Personally I often struggle to figure out what you actually want to know because the requests are to terse (and often lack basic information on where and when a plant has been found).

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Anagallis
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Registriert: 11.08.2014, 22:59

Re: Centaurea montana = C.mollis ? Synonym ?

Beitrag von Anagallis » 12.07.2020, 09:25

To get back to the thread topic: According to the Catalogue of Life, said taxa are not synonyms.

http://www.catalogueoflife.org/col/search/all

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Lilgish
Beiträge: 265
Registriert: 11.03.2011, 11:57
Wohnort: Münsterland

Re: Centaurea montana = C.mollis ? Synonym ?

Beitrag von Lilgish » 12.07.2020, 09:52

I would like to add that it would be nicer if you could show the pictures of the plants in this forum if they are your own pics. I have no interest to click on the links that you post here.

BubikolRamios1
Beiträge: 947
Registriert: 23.05.2016, 20:49

Re: Centaurea montana = C.mollis ? Synonym ?

Beitrag von BubikolRamios1 » 12.07.2020, 10:05

1. I on the other hand have no interest to search in my own gallery where I putted the image that I posted separately here, when answer, possibly after long time, arrives.
2. I do frequently do update of images in my gallery with details that I'm pointed at. Do you expect me to do separate reuploads on x forums on net, considering there is frequently no option to reupload ?
3. frequently I figure/repair id myself, result is prompt available tu users of this forum via link.

Do not have time for all that. Besides I'm sure there are users happy to click to see quality detailed image.

Man kind invented links for a reason.

BubikolRamios1
Beiträge: 947
Registriert: 23.05.2016, 20:49

Re: Centaurea montana = C.mollis ? Synonym ?

Beitrag von BubikolRamios1 » 12.07.2020, 10:10

http://www.blumeninschwaben.de/
http://www.tkgoetz.homepage.t-online.de ... ahome.html

No C.mollis or synonyms. The problem is therefore one can not find what is the diff to C. montana. AFAIK german name is the same for both, maybe english Soft knapweed tells something.

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Anagallis
Beiträge: 8214
Registriert: 11.08.2014, 22:59

Re: Centaurea montana = C.mollis ? Synonym ?

Beitrag von Anagallis » 12.07.2020, 10:50

Because it's an eastern European and Asian species.

http://www.catalogueoflife.org/col/deta ... 2751f31ef3

The Flora Europaea lists 216 species of that genus in Europe, but in the German speaking countries there are only a few. The distincion in the key is done via the length of the teeth on the bracts' margin:

"Appendages with teeth shorter than the width of the margin" -> C. mollis/maramaosiensis
"Appendages with fimbriae as long as the width of the margin" -> C. montana (and many other species)

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Anagallis
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Registriert: 11.08.2014, 22:59

Re: Centaurea montana = C.mollis ? Synonym ?

Beitrag von Anagallis » 12.07.2020, 11:05

BubikolRamios1 hat geschrieben:
12.07.2020, 10:05
Do not have time for all that.
*You* don't have time to provide proper requests => *Others* spend more time to answer your requests

A "proper request" has

* suitable images for identification
* an understndable question
* a minimum of additional information: date, location, minimal description of habitat

--

In other words:
I spend much time to help you, look up things in books (Flora Europaea is hell to read), translate botanical terms for you, even whole descriptions of plants from German to English (which is very time consuming for me), and then you tell us you have no time to make requests a bit more convenient for us? All right, it's your decision, but if your time is too valuable too make life easier for people trying to help you, then my time is too valuable to help you. We're not paid for this.

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Anagallis
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Registriert: 11.08.2014, 22:59

Re: Centaurea montana = C.mollis ? Synonym ?

Beitrag von Anagallis » 12.07.2020, 11:09

BubikolRamios1 hat geschrieben:
12.07.2020, 10:05
2. I do frequently do update of images in my gallery with details that I'm pointed at. Do you expect me to do separate reuploads on x forums on net, considering there is frequently no option to reupload ?
Given that the collage images on your site are often completely unuseable for identification: Yes, uploading separate images showing proper details and an image of the plants habit would be a very good idea. After all *you* want a name for the plants, not us. That is one reason why many of your requests don't get an answer.
Besides I'm sure there are users happy to click to see quality detailed image.
Most people identify plants by habit and general impression. At least 90% of people are unable to identify with just a set of details. This is a very big problem with all images on your site. While having details of the plant can be helpful, it is very much recommended to upload at least an image of the habit with decent quality and size. The images on your site have too low jpeg quality and are often hardly useable because of that.

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Anagallis
Beiträge: 8214
Registriert: 11.08.2014, 22:59

Re: Centaurea montana = C.mollis ? Synonym ?

Beitrag von Anagallis » 12.07.2020, 12:04

Some Literature that can be helpful in Slovenia.

* Gerhard Pils, Illustrated Flora of Albania
ISBN 978-3-200-04853-9
EUR 90
https://www.freewebs.com/gerhardpils/flora-albania

* Flora Europaea, Cambridge University Press, 5 Volumes
Printed on demand, costs about 400 Euro (?). (Ask your local book store.)
(Uses really difficult botanical language.)

BubikolRamios1
Beiträge: 947
Registriert: 23.05.2016, 20:49

Re: Centaurea montana = C.mollis ? Synonym ?

Beitrag von BubikolRamios1 » 12.07.2020, 14:01

Don't get me wrong Anagallis, i'm grateful for all your very usable help but we agree to disagree (-:
"Appendages with teeth shorter than the width of the margin" -> C. mollis/maramaosiensis
"Appendages with fimbriae as long as the width of the margin" -> C. montana (and many other species)
No general impression of whole habitus will do anything here and also not in much other cases that goes into species level.

Personaly I'm annoyed with whole plant images surrounded/submerged into surrounding vegetation, even if I do such image myself where I can provide reasonable DOF, and remove surrounding vegetation. Nothing is clear on such images, maybe (big maybe) focus stack would help, but that is time consuming with uncertain results.
And highly unlikely one could discover details as "Appendages with teeth shorter than the width of the margin" on such image.

From my personal experience: whole plant images from net in 99% of them maybe, if 5% of whole photo is usable, if at all. People just don't care about photo quality - in terms of simple focus/sharpness, nothing more.

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Anagallis
Beiträge: 8214
Registriert: 11.08.2014, 22:59

Re: Centaurea montana = C.mollis ? Synonym ?

Beitrag von Anagallis » 12.07.2020, 14:49

BubikolRamios1 hat geschrieben:
12.07.2020, 14:01
No general impression of whole habitus will do anything here and also not in much other cases that goes into species level.
But it does. I wouldn't dare to make an identification of a species that I haven't seen many times unless I can compare the habit with known good images. Well, most of the time - sometimes there are only a few candidates so identification is still possible.

(By the way, I still do not know what the image has to do with the synonym question. All I can say is that the plant shown is not C. mollis.)
Personaly I'm annoyed with whole plant images surrounded/submerged into surrounding vegetation, even if I do such image myself where I can provide reasonable DOF, and remove surrounding vegetation. Nothing is clear on such images, maybe (big maybe) focus stack would help, but that is time consuming with uncertain results.
I'm not saying that the average image in this forum is good for identification. Plants from the German speaking area are a lot easier because if you see them frequently. That's part of the problem with the Slovenian plants. Without personal knowledge of a species, images and keys are often the only resource that is easily available. There's not even a checklist to see which species are possible and which are not. Genera with many "out of area" species, like Centaurea are often difficult for us. What I often do is browse images of the species in Italy because it's close to your country.

http://luirig.altervista.org/flora/taxa/regioni.php

Often it helps, but sometimes not.

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